
The future of professional associations
There’s still time for professional associations to redefine their value to members, but I’m not aware of any such initiatives among any of these groups. The clock is ticking.
I’m only aware of the associations that serve my profession, the likes of PRSA, CPRS, and the organization to which I’ve belonged since 1977, IABC.
These associations have fulfilled several vital needs for a long time, primarily networking and professional development. However, practitioners don’t need associations for these activities any more. Social media have enabled self-organizing groups to satisfy these professional needs. Some examples:
- While the last Global PR Web Week was nearly two years ago, it shows what can hapen online when a group of volunteers throw their hats in the ring.
- CaseCamp is a self-organizing “unconference” focused on marketing, although anyone interested in any profession could use the same model to put together a similar unconference focused on their own field. In fact, CaseCamp is based on BarCamp, which focuses on web applications, and DemoCamp, a BarCamp offshoot that allows for more regular networking.
- PodCamp, another unconference based on the BarCamp/CaseCamp model, focuses on podcasting. I mention it separately because the recent New York PodCamp drew more than 1,000 participants (only about 400 shy of the typical attendance at an IABC international conference) and some heavyweight sponsors. Like all of these unconferences, the registration is free and the agenda is self-organized using a wiki.
- Third Thursday is a monthly meeting of Bay Area PR and marketing pros interested in learning more about the practical applications of new media in business. It’s currently jointly sponsored by The Social Media Club and The Society for New Communications Research, but was organized by four practitioners who saw a need and started Third Thursday to meet it. In Toronto, the effort has been duplicated with Third Tuesday, while Ottawa offers Third Monday.
- Social networks focused on communications offer individuals another cost-free alternative for networking and knowledge sharing. MyRagan has already attracted several thousand members.
The point is that, given the social network that allows individuals to self-organize for networking and professional development, these benefits of association membership—at a cost of several hundred dollars per year—may lose their appeal. That’s not to suggest these associations can’t provide genuine value that makes the dues worthwhile. And it’s not to suggest that the 14,000 members of IABC are ready to jump ship for online networking just yet. It’s still pretty much the early adopters who have figured out that the network itself can provide the benefits for which they used to rely on their associations. So IABC, PRSA, CPRS—and all those other associations in other professions—still have time to define that role that the social media space cannot play.
But they’d better get started now. Things move fast these days.
Shel,
I thought this was fascinating when you mentioned it in FIR last week.
It occurred to me that if networks are facilitated by organisations that run lots of offline events, the online side only becomes stronger.
One element i’m still wrangling with though. Many of these bodies do provide qualifications and accreditation. These elements would be difficult to replace with a network alone.
Great train of thought. Thoroughly thought provoking!
Cheers,
Matt
Posted by Matt O'Neill on 05/21 at 08:26 AMShel and Matt,
Not sure where I am on this. I see your point Shel, but I do find value in my IABC membership, as I’m sure you do. I think my value resides primarily in workshop and conference opportunities; an association is arguably more capable and experienced in organizing these events, though clearly there are some great success stories, particularly with the PodCamp you mention.
I’d like to think the accreditation means something, but honestly, I have yet to be convinced I need ABC or APR behind my name to be more successful. Maybe that would be different if I worked in an agency, hired by communications pros, not in a corporation, hired by business execs.
Shel, you’d also pressed the point about the need for IABC to step more fully into advocacy, which is another strong suit for many associations. Advocacy and standards really need the credibility of an authoritative organization behind them to be effective.
Thoughts?
Posted by michael clendenin on 05/21 at 11:29 AMI’ve been thinking the same thing for years, but it’s all the more real with the popularization of social media, social networks and the like.
However, I wonder if one of your own mantras can be applied to this situation: New associations don’t kill old associations…they adapt and evolve.
Posted by David Jones on 05/21 at 12:57 PMIABC certainly does provide value for me, Matt, and accreditation is something I HAVE found worthwhile. I also find value in the Code of Ethics, the awards program, and a variety of other dimensions of my membership. However, my point is that associations market their value based on networking and professional development, for which I don’t think we’ll need associations as much in the future. In order to attract members, then the value PROPOSITION needs to change. Networking and PD can remain elements of membership, but what can affiliation do for you that informal online networking cannot?
Associations change very, very slowly because decisions are made by consensus. (I spent six years on IABC’s international executive board; big change is an excruciating process.) That’s why I think adaptation needs to begin now, not five or 10 years from now when conferences, workshops, and networking have moved to the free and open online communication networks.
Posted by Shel Holtz on 05/21 at 02:23 PMInteresting dimensions the association offers. I was intent on telling you that PodCamp and other such events are where networking and conversations in the space are happening, but then I read your response to Matt.
The notion of a code of ethics, awards, and some of the other perks are neat.
But then, that said, and absolutely no knock on IABC or *any* association (directly), wouldn’t these other experiences eventually evolve to incorporate the things you feel you need to do business today?
Will the accrediting process change?
Those kinds of thoughts are floating around un-prepared in my noggin. Swell post, Shel!
Posted by Chris Brogan... on 05/21 at 05:46 PMSeems as though the trend (for trade associations) might be towards smaller face to face meet-ups, based regionally. Like your Third Thursday.
Also occurs to me that ad hoc groups formed, either online or face-to-face, to address a specific challenge are another way to leverage associations.
Posted by Barbara Gavin on 05/22 at 05:42 AMVery thoughtful post. I had a comical moment when the text of your post didn’t appear until about 5 seconds after the template loaded. I thought you were making your point very creatively, as in, The future of professional societies is…. [nothing]
As a not-for-profit executive myself, forgive me if I don’t get all alarmed by your post. Every few years a new threat comes along that the dooms-day’ers say will be the demise of associations. And we’re still here. I actually see a tremendous future for professional societies to provide value-added social networks for members only for a fee. It will require a major mindset shift for association professionals like me. Fortunately, there are a number of forward-thinking association professionals who are up to this challenge. Visit my blog to read how association professionals like me are addressing it.
Posted by Ben Martin on 05/22 at 08:25 AMI believe you are on the mark as usual, Shel, and that IABC and other associations would do themselves good by taking your advice to act now.
I served three years on the IABC Executive Board (with you) and the cautious deliberation and consensus-building you describe was frustrating to me.
I’ve jumped into MyRagan and found it to meet several needs. In fact, I find it more valuable, frankly, than my IABC membership right now. I just renewed my membership, but mostly to hang onto my accreditation, which I do value. As for networking, access to best practices, professional development, etc., new social media are filling those needs quite nicely—along with local chapters of IABC and PRSA.
Posted by Robert J Holland, ABC on 05/22 at 10:05 AMHi Shel,
Interesting post!! I agree with Ben – this is not the first threat associations will face and it won’t be the last. I remember back in the early 90’s at the first digital now conference - word was that if you didn’t change your association business model before lunch break and have an instant “paradigm shift” you were toast : )
Well here we are many years later talking about how social media will change associations as we know them. I do agree that associations will be affected by social media, but this is only one of many threats. For example:
Time: I believe this is a huge threat to associations. No one has time to volunteer or participate in the traditional offerings. When members ask for a different experience, they’re criticized for trying to rock the boat.
Google, Yahoo and the many other search engines have turned information into a commodity – What now?
Sorry for the cliché but associations need to start thinking outside of the box. They need to become more innovative, take more risks, invite younger members to the table, start delivering on their definition of value, synthesize the old with the new, collaborate with related associations, and communicate their value propositions more effectively.
The biggest threat to associations in my opinion is their own fear of change. It reminds me of the book Who Moved My Cheese. Things are still okay now so let’s keep doing what we’ve always done.
Just my 2 Cents
Joe Grant
http://www.joe-grant.typepad.comPosted by Joe Grant on 05/22 at 11:52 AMAll the folks in association management are really talking about this article—it’s my first time to this blog and I just subscribed, so thanks for the post.
I think you’re right the current trend toward online communities will probably gut some associations. But I have found that the thing that the virtual groups haven’t quite the same impact at is influencing legislation, particularly at the state and local level. Of course, not every association needs to represent itself—for example, in a profession that’s not regulated by the government. But advocacy is where the old-school associations shine, and until that infrastructure shows up virtually (it probably will eventually), associations are here to stay.
But it is very very true, as you say, that associations are slow to act. I am quite confident that that slowness will quickly separate the chaff from the wheat.
Posted by Nick on 05/22 at 01:01 PMShel,
Thanks for a great post. You have helped spark debate inside the association professional community. Yes, there really is such a thing and there are even thought leaders, a couple of them have chimed in here.
It is great to see this conversation taking place outside of association land. As an association professional myself, I am excited to see this conversation happening. Thanks again.
Posted by Greg Fine on 05/22 at 02:26 PMAs long as social networks behave like MyRagan (see: http://www.technorati.com/posts/tag/myragan+social+media+club) I rather stick with the professional organisations
Posted by Markus Pirchner on 05/23 at 05:02 AMIt’s great to see so many comments from the association world.
Nick, you’re absolutely right about influencing legislation—for those associations that have lobbying efforts. The next step is for these associations to highlight this activity in their marketing and promotional efforts.
The associations—like IABC—that have no lobbying activities need to identify and focus on those values they bring to members that cannot be duplicated by groups like CaseCamp and Third Thursday.
Ben, I know there are progressive association leaders out there. I was a regular listener to Jeff DeCagna’s podcast—Associations Unorthodox—while he was producing it. My focus, frankly, is on MY association—IABC. I’m a very loyal and dedicated member. I paid for lifetime membership, and would do so again today, even as the social media space assumes many of the roles IABC plays. It’s because of my dedication to IABC that I want to see the organization evaluate its value proposition. Continued focus on PD and networking won’t cut it…especially in the communication field.
Posted by Shel Holtz on 05/23 at 05:04 AMShel,
Surely these new free online networks complement rather than replace existing associations and networking groups.
It goes without saying that free services have a disruptive effect on paid business models. But providing paid membership groups adapt and evolve, they will survive and thrive, particularly if they work out how to mesh in their services with the free networks.
During the dot-com boom when free sites were launching weekly, people questioned how paid content models would survive, but survive they did and some would argue that competition makes you stronger.
Through my work at Melcrum, I have launched dozens of sites, some free and some paid, and one thing I have learned is that the two models work hand-in-hand. People generally understand that something is free for a reason and that quality costs.
So whilst online networks will replace some services that we used to have to pay for, such as connecting people, they are unlikely to replace the breadth and depth of relationship that can be achieved through paid memberships, nor the quality of conversation that comes through skilled facilitation.
Robin Crumby.
Posted by Robin Crumby on 05/23 at 05:18 AMThis is a VERY interesting discussion. As a TRADE association manager, I see some real benefits to online networks/collaboration etc., especially for our many small business members who often must be “on the job” themselves and cannot “get away” for live face-to-face events. But we’re still not very skilled at imparting information (let alone education) this way. And, the proliferation of e-communcation vehicles (blog; webcast; podcast; txt.info etc.- and don’t forget boring old email) raises the time and expense of those communications as members’ preferences may vary. HELP!!!!!!!
One note regarding value…Shel, you describe Networking as a “benefit.” You are correct from the perspective that association’s often tout networking as a benefit. However, the real VALUE is defined by the RESULT of networking (e.g. a new job; business contacts that result in revenue; etc). However, most associations completely miss the value aspect here. Will have to ponder if this is unique to face to face or if the value itself can be replicated virtually. Good question to chew on.
Thanks for the opportunity!
Roger
Posted by Roger Wentz on 05/23 at 06:10 AMshel,
this conversation could mark the beginning of a paradigm shift in how associations bring value to their memberships.
kindda like when man first walked on the moon, except not like that at all. ;O)
great to see so much opinion!
matt
Posted by Matt O'Neill on 05/23 at 06:22 AMShel, is anyone at IABC taking a look at this excellent conversation?
Posted by Robert J Holland, ABC on 05/23 at 08:29 AMShel,
Great blog! I’m also an association exec and couldn’t agree more with your observations. I would say however, there are a few associations really pushing forward with social media initatives.
The obvious areas for innovation are things like member directories (they don’t need to be just a name lookup), they can be a way of creating and building personal communities. Same goes with microsites - the ability for interest groups within an association to build their own content/mini-website using the association website. A very popular area of online networking is currently with listservs… but very few associations (I only know of two) have taken the initatives to go from “good to great” and really take this valuable networking tool to the next level (and generate new (non-dues) revenue!).
I’m guessing in a couple of years, there will be several high profile associations with such great case studies that the rest will hopefully follow. As you know from experience the speed can be painfully slow, but eventually they normally get there.
Cheers,
Andy Steggles
Posted by Andy Steggles on 05/23 at 05:29 PMMore great comments; thanks, everybody!
Robin: I agree with you entirely about complementing rather than replacing. Again, though, this is something that needs to be factored into association marketing messages. The fact that people close to associations know it doesn’t mean that current marketing will convince new members—especially younger professionals for whom social media are a fact of life—to pony up their dollars and join. We need to COMMUNICATE these points.
Roger: Same point as above. And it’s the result of networking that I find valuable in the social media space, as well. In fact, MORE valuable these days. My online social media connections provide me with greater value than I get from the IABC network these days. That’s not a knock on IABC, but a simple reality.
Robert, I haven’t heard a word from anyone at IABC. Maybe somebody could give them a nudge?
Posted by Shel Holtz on 05/23 at 06:10 PMShel,
I was considering the same question as you and posted on the same day about it.Just yesterday evening, I came across an email update from IABC about the conference—in my Yahoo! bulk SPAM mail folder. Long overdue communication, and only spotted because I decided to check the SPAM messages before permanently deleting them (which I don’t always do.)
Markus Pirchner commented here about how the recent spat regarding MyRagan and its decision to change leadership of one of its groups might lead people back to associations. I wrote a post about another reason why that might be the ultimate decision of many emotionally weary communicators.
Good conversation as always, Shel. Looking forward to saying hello in New Orleans. Do you and Neville plan to set-up another FIR dinner?
Posted by Tom Keefe on 05/24 at 04:25 AMMy membership for IABC came up for renewal recently and I didn’t bother renewing it, for several reasons: 1) I get no networking value from an organisation in a city with only three members (one of whom spends most of her time in Sydney); 2) I see no value professionally (apart from my own self-confidence) in achieving ABC accreditation; 3) I see no point in spending Au$270+ just to receive a monthly glossy magazine.
My nearest active IABC chapters are in Melbourne and Sydney, neither of which I visit socially. When I visit a city professionally I fly in and fly out same day if at all possible.
I have generated far more ‘networking’ opportunities through social media avenues than IABC membership, thus I agree with you and fellow contributors that professional organisations certainly need to RAPIDLY question their value-add and come up with a new set of membership bonuses.
Posted by Lee Hopkins on 05/24 at 08:46 PMThanks, Tom. I disagree with Markus. Much of the blogosphere response to the kerfuffle at MyRagan is one-sided and ignorant (or uninterested) in Ragan’s side of the story. I have to express some dismay over the fact that Chris opted not to run the comment Mark left to the Social Media Club blog. There’s still plenty of great networking available at MyRagan, despite this momentary hiccup. Markus is, I think, overreacting.
Lee, I’m sorry to hear you’re leaving. I still believe there is a tremendous amount of value in IABC. My only issue is that they’re not marketing the value effectively, remaining focused on value that is now available elsewhere and for free.
Posted by Shel Holtz on 05/25 at 02:15 AMIt won’t surprise all of you who are engaged in this discussion—and those who are reading it—to learn that I have some opinions on this issue.
Certainly the times they are a’changin’ and IABC will have to change with them. But we need to be careful not to be seduced by every new gadget that comes along. Remember those pronouncements that computers were going to result in a paperless office?
IABC actually has had a number of “social networking” tools for many years. We just did use that name for them. I am referring to Memberspeak, which allows members to post questions and get answers. The IABC Cafe and Communication Commons provide on-line discussion forums for members and non-members.
Admittedly, these vehicles don’t have all of Facebook’s bells and whistles. So we are in the process of looking at which ones our members would use.
Once we have decided what improvements we should make to our on-line forums/social networking tools, they will complement, not replace, our other offerings. IABC serves a diverse membership, and there is no one-size fits all solution for how our members want to interact or receive information.
What we shouldn’t forget is that even when on-line communities are successful at connecting people, they often want to meet face-to-face. BlogHer started as an on-line community of women bloggers; now they have an annual conference in San Jose. Yesterday Facebook made an announcement about a new feature that will allow members to raise money for causes. They announced it by holding press conference in San Francisco. The Chronicle had a picture of members standing around TALKING to each other.
Of course, networking and the benefits gained by doing so are just one reason to belong to an association. IABC will continue to update those other programs so that we can remain relevant to the changing environment.
And we are always listening to ideas about how to do that.
Julie Freeman, ABC, APR
IABC PresidentPosted by Julie Freeman, IABC President on 05/25 at 09:42 AMAbsolutely, Julie! IABC offers tremendous benefits and I always advocate membership. My focus is on highlighting those benefits as the free and membership-less social network assumes some of the PD/networking role.
Posted by Shel Holtz, ABC on 05/25 at 12:18 PMMuch as the 1989 earthquake didn’t destroy San Francisco, the arrival of MyRagan (and potentially the long-overdue freeing of Melcrum’s once-free Communicators’ Network) will not destroy IABC, PRSA or the other offline players that seek to represent and offer communicators resources.
But the effect of these new tools will be appropriately seismic, and the instinctive tendency of the big associations towards turf protection, defense of existing revenue models and pricing structures, and controlling internal discussion will make things much tougher for the likes of Julie Freeman and IABC’s headquarters operation and her peers at other associations.
One real question will be the extent to which IABC headquarters seeks to make the chapters and members feel the pain. If they have the ability to plug into other national/global networking resources, will local IABC chapters feel obliged to retain their ties to “the International” over time?
And while IABC has often resisted the formation of “sectarian” interest groups focused on specific subsets of the business communications community, the fact that MyRagan’s “internal communications” group already has 500 members weeks after launch indicates that MyRagan may be better suited to the needs of practitioners than a local chapter of IABC that has more promotions people and printers than internal comms pros.
So while there are congrats to be to the Ragan crew for their outstanding and much-needed platform, it is my hope that IABC and its peers accept and adapt to the new situation as opposed to fighting it and defending the status quo.
Posted by Mike Klein on 05/27 at 03:31 PMMyRagan will not put IABC or PRSA or any other professional organization out of business. Ragan Communications has a different purpose, a different “mission,” and a different business model than IABC and the others.
But there is no denying MyRagan—and others that follow, for they certainly will—will have an impact on what IABC and other organizations offer communication professiionals.
MyRagan has done in a few short weeks what IABC has not been able to do in several years—create a true online community of professionals who freely debate, exchange best practices, ask questions of one another, share information and knowledge, and simply have fun with their peers. As MyRagan sets sail, IABC is left waving from the shores of cautious deliberation and consensus.
And with all due respect to Julie, MyRagan’s offering is much more than just “bells and whistles.” It goes beyond gadgetry. The real success of MyRagan is its willingness to expand the boundaries of discussion—to enable communication pros to have a free-flowing, no-holds-barred conversation. Sure, IABC offers some social networking tools, but my experience has been that IABC would rather the conversations be polite than provocative. I’m not advocating vulgarity and a lack of professional decorum at all times, but certainly there are situations that call for the rules to be relaxed a bit, for dissenting voices to be heard in all their imperfections, and for true debate to take place.
MyRagan, for example, has not only allowed but encouraged an open debate about whether or not to allow organizations to promote themselves on the site. Mark Ragan has invited a candid dialogue and even criticism. This is something you will not find on an IABC site because the association has become too afraid, over the years, of offending someone or causing dissent among the membership.
If that kind of careful dialogue and those kinds of boundaries are your cup of tea, then IABC is for you. But unless significant changes occur in IABC’s culture, it will never be what MyRagan has become and it shouldn’t try. Instead, IABC should perhaps stick to what it does best: offer knowledge resources, produce a very good annual conference and offer face-to-face networking via local chapters.
But even then, IABC has some work to do to strengthen its offering to members. From the time I joined IABC nearly 20 years ago, through my experiences as a chapter leader, district leader and in three years on the executive board, I’ve always believed IABC’s greatest strength was its local chapters and that it is the local chapters that should be IABC’s focus. Strengthen them, provide great resources to them (like the Leaders Institute) and IABC will flourish around the world. Unfortunately, IABC’s focus has not been on supporting local chapters in recent years, so it risks losing its greatest competitive advantage.
Perhaps MyRagan and similar online communities will be a wake-up call to IABC and the association will realize where its primary focus should be.
But the greatest threat to IABC and other associations is not from MyRagan. It’s from the associations’ unwillingness to recognize what they offer that MyRagan can’t and to take significant action to exploit that strength.
Posted by Robert J Holland, ABC on 05/29 at 04:57 AMThanks for the thoughtful post, Robert.
I certainly agree that MyRagan won’t (can’t) put IABC out of business. Again, my focus is on the benefits of membership that are promoted in any association’s marketing efforts (not just IABC’s); these efforts need to focus on those benefits (current and future) that the association is uniquely positioned to provide and not so much on those that are being assumed by lower (or no) cost alternatives that have emerged from the social media space.
Posted by Shel Holtz on 05/29 at 05:44 AMAgree with both Robert (particularly in his comments about IABC’s culture) and Shel—there is a role for IABC (and PRSA/CIPR), but primarily as an accreditor, an off-line convenor (and supporter of local chapters). IABC also perhaps has a role facilitator/resource aggregator for advocacy efforts on behalf of the communications professions and potentially as a resource for independent practitioners, offering group health insurance and the like.
The real question is whether IABC et al will be up for this kind of role, and whether they will be willing to make the serious organizational and cultural adjustments to do so.
While MyRagan is not an alternative to IABC et al in those areas, the ability it will offer individuals and groups to communicate and connect with the entire industry and specific “sectarian” parts of the industry could easily facilitate some real competition for IABC, particularly for competitors with less overhead and more focus on real practitioner needs.
Game On!
Mike
Posted by Mike Klein on 05/29 at 06:09 AMThis lively discussion has given me much food for thought. I have passed the link onto the Executive Board. I expect that we will process many of these ideas at our June meeting.
Mike asked whether IABC is up for a redefined role. Absolutely!
Thanks for the input.
Julie
Posted by Julie Freeman, ABC, APR on 05/30 at 04:19 PMShel/Julie,
As the CIO of a medium/large trade organization, I have faced similar challenges. I was fortunate to have the financial backing of my House of Directors, Board of Directors and Executive Council. As a result I was able to get the financial backing to really make the association state of the art. Interestingly, the investment we have made over the years has unexpectedly paid for itself through new technology related non-dues revenue sources and streamlining of operations.I can definitely say lessons were learned along the way, but the investment was key in turning around a 10 year trend in declining membership. The networking and social media tools we provide are really state of the art in many ways and are well used by our members (demographic tracking is key to measuring success).
Interestingly, during the same period in which our membership started to increase, our chapters started to decline. Most were geographically challenged and could not contend with the flexibility and convenience of the web. Many of the chapters which did survive have flourished and are stronger than ever before. I still believe our 80 or so international chapters are the heart of the organization; however acknowledging the web can also have an impact on your chapters is important and is something to be cognizant of.
As chair of the NYSAE Technology Council, I have a great personal interest in seeing associations flourish and stay informed. If you or your Executive Board would like to hear from some of our lessons learned (what worked/what didn’t) and look at some of our measurable results, I’d be happy to volunteer my services and go over it with you.
Best wishes,
Andy Steggles
Posted by Andy Steggles on 05/30 at 05:28 PMShel,
The pond just got a little murkier with what this all means for the industry with the launch of The Communicators’ Network, the free-to-join online community for professional communicators. Neville kindly recorded a podcast interview over at FIR to discuss this.
I just wrote about what I think this means for the industry and why I think this helps rather than adds to the problem at: http://www.melcrumblog.com/2007/06/does_the_world_.html
The goal of the site is not social networking, even though that is the lowest common denominator to describe these types of sites. Actually, its goal is a little grander:
“To aggregate the knowledge, know-how and expertise that lies scattered throughout various groups for professional communicators around the world and share them for the benefit of all.”
I would welcome your comments on whether you think this is a “fool’s errand”, a little “overblown” or “just what the doctor ordered”.
Robin.
Posted by Robin Crumby on 06/01 at 04:44 AMShel, I don’t know anything about the group you mention (IABC). I do know that professional and trade associations in many areas are thinking about these issues and their concerns go way beyond marketing to include core issues like what the association wants to enable its member to do with the tools and infrastructure it provides. My belief is that existing professional and trade associations can make extremely good use of available social media and social networking tools to enhance member services, but the chief barrier is fear of change. Fortunately, many of the tools are already being used by mid level managers within these organizations (social networks, blogs, wikis, social bookmarking) and their value is being demonstrated from the ground up. This gives me hope. My latest blog post on this topic is here: http://www.ddmcd.com/codevelopment.html
Posted by Dennis McDonald on 06/01 at 01:26 PM
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