Why hasn’t audio podcasting gone mainstream?
I’ve had this post in mind for a couple months now. I’ve put it off due in part to my travel schedule and in part because I wanted to chew on it a bit more. It’s certainly not a new topic; in fact, it’s well-worn territory:
Why hasn’t audio podcasting become mainstream?
I utterly reject the argument posited by some very smart people (like Chris Brogan) that the explosion of online video is to blame. With respect to those who have made this case, I have to shake my head in disbelief. If the popularity of video could stifle the growth of audio, why didn’t the introduction of television kill radio? There certainly were enough pundits in the 1940s who believed TV spelled doom for radio, but in fact radio thrived and grew to become more profitable than ever. It did so by adapting based on its remaining strengths.
The appeal of watching Don Imus (before his fall from grace) on MSNBC. What was visually appealing about watching a guy sit behind a desk with studio monitors over his ears talking into a microphone? Radio is much better at talk and music than TV is. And when people couldn’t focus 100% of their attention on a video screen, radio entertained them while they kept their eyes elsewhere (like the road, for instance; people who read while they drive scare the shit out of me).
Chris also suggests that the incursion of traditional radio into the audio podcasting space is detrimental. But look at the most viewed videos on YouTube. How much there is original content? The list I’m looking at includes Saturday Night Live clips, scenes from soccer games, Japanese soap operas and other appropriated content.
Another point in favor of audio podcasting comes from Rob Walch, host of Podcast 411, in an email exchange we had on the subject:
It is much easier to compete against a Radio station - there is not much difference in Audio quality when you listen on your iPod between a “Professional” recording and one done by us indie podcasters.
Personally, I find most of the video podcasts to be worthless as video; I’d much rather listen to them. What’s the appeal of watching some guy talk into his webcam? Why should I have to watch that? If you’re going to produce something as video, for God’s sake please make it visually compelling. That’s what I love about shows like Geek Brief TV and Rocketboom: There’s something to actually look at.
And let’s not forget that video requires your complete attention. Audio is the only medium to which we can pay attention while we’re doing something else.
So if Internet video’s phenomenonal rise isn’t to blaim for the stagnation in podcasting’s growth, what is? The answer, I believe, is infrastructure. There is not a simple infrastructure common across the podcasting world that makes it drop-dead easy to download podcasts and transfer them to a portable device.
Offloading video isn’t that big an issue. Most people watch online videos (whether they’re podcasts or not) on their computers. The appeal of podcasting is the ability to listen while you’re walking the dog, mowing the lawn, or (as I am right now) sitting on another tedious goddam cross-country flight.
How you subscribe is not standardized. How podcatchers and MP3 devices work is not standardized. While most people who read this blog have probably figured out how to deal with podcasts and RSS feeds and the like, my mom would be completely lost. I guarantee you she would listen to FIR if she could; she reads my books, after all, even though she has no clue what they’re talking about. But books all work alike. Bookstores work alike.
I’m not expecting a resolution to this situation any time soon because there is no profit-motivated industry that would benefit through the cooperative development of a consistent, standardized infrastructure. In the book ”The Death of Competition,” which I read several years ago, author James F. Moore talks about “coopetition,” competing companies working together to create an ecosystem that supports the growth of all players. Moore points to the videogame industry as an example. Companies like Ninentendo, SEGA, and Atari joined forces to create the gaming infrastructure. No, an Atari game wouldn’t play in a Nintendo device, but the distribution channels and other aspects of the infrastructure needed to exist before the various platforms could prosper.
There is no similar profit-motivated ecosystem in podcasting, and I don’t believe one is on the horizon. So podcasting’s growth will continue to be incremental—volunteers take more time to promote an infrastructure than businesses—but continue to grow it will.
My biggest regret from the PME is not finding some time to sit down and chat with you. Believe me, I’d have loved to talk about this in person.
My point about audio isn’t that it’s dead. My point is that the MONEY seems to be moving towards video, and by money, I mean that people getting funded and sponsored and paid to create media are finding success in video.
When I look at my podcast subscriptions (only about 70), I note that I have about 70% audio, 30% video, and I’m PAID to pay attention to Video. Why don’t I watch more video? For the very reason you point out: it requires more attention, and lots of it isn’t worth full attention.
When I talk about the mainstream audio coming in and encroaching, I’m telling audio podcasters to step up their game. Why? Because if you’re doing yet another tech podcast, you’re competing with Leo LaPorte, and dozens of quality professional productions. If you’re doing business, you’re competing with John Byrne and BusinessWeek. My point there is that TEAMS of people with audio engineers at their back are your competition in audio.
In video, the competition is high, too. Hell, there’s competition all over.
Know what will win? You know, but I’m asking in that larger hypothetical way. Great stuff that has a connection with the people who support it.
That’s why YOU have die hard fans, Shel. Jeez. I remember last year at PME. There was this HUGE raft of people in a line waiting to bow for you. And there’s a good reason: you and that weird UK guy make some GREAT audio. Great because it’s real and connected.
So, that’s where I’m going with it.
By the way, I’ll let you in on a little secret (well, you and the 3BILLION people who read your blog). I’m writing a book (because all the cool kids are doing it), but I’m doing audio and video work around it. Know which one I’m having fun with? The audio. I’m having a blast re-learning how to podcast simply.
Audio’s not dead. But boy oh boy, if you want to grow rich and put your kids through school, it might be a tough way to make a buck.
Make sense?
Posted by Chris Brogan... on 10/16 at 09:33 AMI think Rob Walch’s quote is completely wrong - and I’ll tell you why. A hell of a lot of audio podcasts just plain suck, and it does a lot of damage to the impression of podcasts as a whole.
Think about it this way: Average Joe hears about podcasts as a great way to get some new audio content, especially about a niche he is interested in. He takes the time to find a show or two, figures out how to subscribe and download the show, and he takes the time to listen. If the show is bad quality - by today’s standards of broadcast media - he gets turned off. Moreover - he will be less likely to turn to podcasts again - because he already spent a lot of effort getting the show, and in attempting to listen to it. He may go back to podcasting again - and try mainstream media podcasts from brands he knows - but indie podcasters? Fugeddaboutit! Those clowns sound like college radio or worse.
This is not meant to disparage indie podcasters. This is a wakeup call - that the barrier to gaining listeners for indie podcasters is extraordinarily high, and average joes’ tolerance is extraordinarily low. Maybe it’s higher then I give it credit for, but still - I wonder what the stats of how many people try indie podcassts and stick around with them are.
See what I’m getting at? High quality media from brands we know is still going to get a lot of attention, and indie podcasters have to work hard to make theirs stand out so average joes know indie podcasters also produce high quality content, and the low quality indie folks can sit back and not ruin it for all the indie podcasters.
I know this is contrary to what people think about podcasting - that anyone can do it, it’s like blogging, etc… But it’s easy to click past a poor blog, it’s not so easy to get over the effort placed into finding a podcast that gets dashed when it sucks bad.
--*Rob
Posted by Rob Usdin on 10/16 at 10:34 AMAnother reason to consider is what we’ve become as a society. We (at least anyone under the age of 60) have grown up gathering around the video output system called a TV. It has become integrated into our DNA. We are drawn to video.
When was the last time you gathered the family around the radio to listen?
I don’t believe it is necessarily about content, I believe it is who we are - visual people. We become more engaged visually than we do with any auditory stimulation. Why haven’t audio podcasts taken off? You can look at radio versus TV ratings and get the answer to that. We will always be drawn to video and unfortunately, that won’t ever change.
Posted by Mike Bellina on 10/16 at 10:35 AMI think there are myriad reasons, but let me take a stab at a few off the top of my head.
1. The mainstream is turned off by the use of geeky terms like podcasting and RSS. People think podcasts need to be listened to on an iPod, even though I recall reading some data at one point that suggests most people listen to them on their computers directly. Anytime you have to explain the content format to someone, you lose.
2. Podcasts aren’t as easy to listen to as we would all have people believe. I have to mud wrestle with iTunes on a regular basis to get it to update my subscriptions in a timely fashion and then properly sync them to my iPod. And I know what I am doing, imagine how it is for casual users.
3. There’s some good podcast content out there, but far less than most of us who are directly involved believe. It is hard to judge one’s own work and that of colleagues.
4. Think about how different the content of podcasts is versus successful radio. Many podcasts tend to be rambling, somewhat self-serving commentaries (my own included from time to time). Most good radio is interactive between host and caller or host and guest. Very few survive on the backs of the host(s) alone.
5. Radio is taken in digestible chunks for durations determined by the listener. Podcasts are created in durations determined by the creator. You can’t tune in for the last few minutes of a podcast easily.
6. The same things that make podcasts more flexible also make it more challenging for the casual listener.
7. People don’t listen to radio when tethered to their computers or devices. They listen when in their cars or on the porch or at the beach. Only geeks like us have our devices with us 24/7.
8. Average people don’t want to listen to work-related content during off hours. Employers don’t want employees listening during work hours. Hence, business podcasts don’t take off beyond a small niche.
There are others, but I have to run to a call right now. I’ll give it some more thought and expand here or in my own blog post.
Great to get this dialogue going, though, Shel. Maybe I’ll have to get you on Disruptive Dialogue to discuss this!
Posted by Chip Griffin on 10/16 at 10:38 AMI think Rob and Chris are onto something. As someone who samples a crazy amount of podcasts, I find a lot of podcasters simply record a show without ever trying to improve on it. It’s not their “day job” so why worry about quality, right? If people are interested in the subject, they’ll listen no matter what, right? WRONG!
Deplorable quality (of content and production) abounds! Learn! Grow! Make your podcast better! Then we might want to listen if you have something interesting to say. We have too much societal A.D.D. to pay attention for long if your podcast sucks. I’ll just go listen to Mitch Joel, The Radio Adventures of Dr. Floyd, CC Chapman or simply turn on my XM. THEY make my ears and brain happy.
Posted by Darrin Dickey on 10/16 at 10:50 AMI agree that some podcasts stink. (Mine included) By the same token, some videocasts stink just as much. But people still engage in them. Why?
I think we listen with our eyes. I know it sounds crazy, but think about how we absorb information. I don’t think it’s about quality either. It’s human nature. That my story and I’m sticking to it.
Posted by Mike Bellina on 10/16 at 11:10 AMThe problem with podcasting can best be summed up by someone who reads a prenting blog I write for, and finally went over to my podcast site. Well, her current computer can’t access audio reasonably. She has that older computer/dial up vs high speed thing.
I long thought the podcasting “magic” would have more to do with a successful launch of something like VISTA than anything else. Once computers are upgraded so everyone has a great processor and video card; once high speed internet and wifi abound at low cost; once dial up finally fades into the past and FiOS is the name of the game, then cracking the market on podcasting/videocasting etc. will be much easier.
Right now, our content is still invisible to people who want to hear what we have to say, but can still only access a text-driven world reliably. It’s not just access as in accessible to people with disabilities, it’s access as in- if your podcast takes 14 hr to download over a dial up modem- it’s not happening and might as well not be there at all. SEO will help people find you, but if they still can’t get all the info, well, you aren’t any better off at all.
Posted by Whitney Hoffman on 10/16 at 11:34 AMHm,
probably severak reasons, some covered above.
Personally I believe Chip is on to something when stating “People don’t listen to radio when tethered to their computers” - computers big screens, it’s a visual experience.
If you shall bring podcasts “on the go” you need to:
A) Have an ipod (or similiar device)
B) Sync it regulary with your PC (not only to refresh your music library twice a year...)There’s another familiar device than can fill this position, with some advantages - the mobile phone. See here for some ideas: http://thekillerattitude.com/2007/09/podcasters-please-get-into-my-mobile.html
Once you podcasters starts to feed my mobile phone I might start to listen to podcasts regulary. This is not the case today.
- I do not want to listen to podcasts on my PC
- I do not have an MP3 device (besides my phone)
- When I had a MP3 player (currently broken) i didn’t use iTunes, and didn’t sync it very often.But my phone is connected and ready to play the latest podcast. As long as you are willing to notify me of the next show.
Posted by Johan Myrberger on 10/16 at 12:14 PMI am with you here, Shel, we need infrastructure, we need standards.
Green means go - red means stop. Why not make it easier? Why this usability mess in podcasting?
I acknowledge podcasting is going through the same phases as the web and homepages have - a lot of experimenting and a lot of geeky hassle and no standards. But we have learned a lot.
But with podcasts...! People who might go looking for podcasts on websites and blogs get lost, completely. How do we help them:
By confusing them with words as subscription, even though it´s for free?
By hiding the link to the feed or maybe not even giving a link?
By publishing feeds that don´t validate and therefore makes the content impossible to subscribe to?
By not adding one-click-buttons to podcatchers like iTunes?
By not letting people play the file in a Flash player?
By leading people to think that you have to have a blog to host a podcast?
By giving long and geeky explanations to what a podcast is as if this is an IQ test?
By letting people think you need an iPod to listen to podcasts?
etc.
I know supermarkets can make their profit increase by moving the stuff around, so we have to keep looking for what we need, but podcasting can not, if you ask me, become mainstream, if we don´t agree on some kind of infrastructure, standards, usability rules, just like any other media must do.
Posted by Karin Hoegh on 10/16 at 12:58 PMYikes! I don’t post much of anything for a couple weeks, then one post draws nine comments—substantial, well-thought-out comments—in a couple hours. And here I am at LAX about to board a flight to Kansas City that won’t get in until almost midnight—it’ll be Thursday before I can absorb and respond to these. I wanted to let you all know that I WILL feed back on these thoughts when I have a moment to breathe!
One quick thought, Chris (Brogan): I have two sponsors for my audio podcast, and Neville and I didn’t seek either of them out! They came to us.
As for audio podcasts that suck, there are plenty of video podcasts that suck, too. I don’t watch or listen to any of them—only ones I like. Kinda like TV shows.
Damn business travel…
Posted by Shel Holtz on 10/16 at 02:13 PMRob U - You completely missed the point of my quote. I was simply stating it is much easier to be on a level playing field with Audio vs Big Media than it is with Video. For less than $100 in equipement and a really quite room in your house you can record audio that sounds as good as anything coming out of a professional studio - to 99% of the population. I was not saying or implying that all podcasts sound as good as Professionally produced audio. Sadly most do not come anywhere close.
Chip - Per item 5 in your post.
“5. Radio is taken in digestible chunks for durations determined by the listener. Podcasts are created in durations determined by the creator. You can’t tune in for the last few minutes of a podcast easily.”
Huh??? - I say with jaw wide open.
So what you are saying is that radio is better because you can stumple upon the end of show and not know what is going on. VS a Podcast that lets you listen to the entire show or quickly jump around to what you want? I am blown away by this one. Have you ever listened to a podcast?? It is all about what you want, when you want it - how you want it. You the listener is in complete control of the consumption. If you are listening to a Radio program and pull up to work - you have to turn it off - no matter where you are in the program and when you come out at the end of the day - it does not pick back up. With podcasting - I can hit stop at 8:00 AM and play again at 7:00 PM and it picks right back up where I left off.
Per item 7
“7. People don’t listen to radio when tethered to their computers or devices. They listen when in their cars or on the porch or at the beach. Only geeks like us have our devices with us 24/7.”
There are 100 Million people with iPods that would disagree.
Oh by the way - Great Post Shel. I think I know the answer to your question. But You will need to wait until my Column in next months Blogger and Podcaster Magazine. (ok I will tell you over drinks later today at the marriott.)
Rob W
podCast411Posted by Rob Walch on 10/16 at 10:38 PMRob W- Yes, I listen to lots of podcasts (including yours, which I really enjoy). And I create them, too.
My point regarding item 5 is that podcasts require the listener to proactively decide to listen. Yes, if you are seriously interested in the content then it is a great resource. But if I am a casual listener—as many radio listeners are—I may just want to flip around the dial, catch snippets, and hang out for a little bit.
Podcasts don’t require, but they do encourage, more commitment. There is no serendipity as you must select your show explicitly (usually). And if you are only going to listen to a portion, it will generally be at the start of the podcast which—let’s face it—is not always where most podcasts have their best content. As with talk radio, the best content often is somewhere in the middle since the beginning is often introductory, housekeeping kind of stuff. If you don’t get hooked right out of the gate, then, you likely will stay away. Whereas you could tune in to talk radio and get hooked by something 2/3 of the way through that day’s show. Yes, with radio it is a crapshoot, but there are advantages to that format.
Moreover, your point about listening to a show in the morning and finishing in the afternoon helps make my point. Yes, you get to listen to that podcast in its entirety. But it probably means you don’t sample anything else. Radio audience numbers include people who tune in for part of a show. How many people listen to a radio show in its entirety?
As to item #7, podcasts (at least the ones that I think we are talking about here) are like AM talk radio. People listen to music on iPods. iPods replace tape and CD players, not AM radios—or even FM ones.
I have a few new points, too, though I suppose I should just write my own blog post at this point. But in brief they are:
9. I can’t have real-time interaction with a podcast, either directly or vicariously. AM talk radio thrives in part because of timely caller interaction. Podcast comments draw out a discussion that would be better if it were had all at one time, rather than in snippets over the course of several weeks.
10. “FM” podcasts (music ones) are obviously hamstrung by licensing issues.
Posted by Chip Griffin on 10/17 at 02:56 AMIt’s clear we have to make this easier to find, but we also have to realize how many people have clue podcasts exist.
Posted by Whitney Hoffman on 10/17 at 03:18 AMI’m absolutely convinced the word POD is fundamentally wrong, I ditched it myself a while back, preferring RADIO, as this immediately indicates something to listen to very easily, - aside from this academic debate of semantics there are other things pertaining to large marketing budgets....
To me zillions of podcasts can be created but without serious financial backing I doubt main stream fame will follow… there will always be niche markets (very low traffic areas) just as there are bizzare niche cable stations, but main-stream needs to funamentally address one thing.
EASY of use and accessible everywhere, coupled with financial backing to get it on the main-stream media channels in the first place…
As we see it now “podcasts” in “mainstream” are just an alternative format for the big players, not “THE” main medium.
Posted by Chris Hambly on 10/17 at 06:17 AMI agree with Chris Brogan that video is killing audio podcasts.
Audio is good if you’re exercising, relaxing with eyes shut, or you like listening to voice.
Video enables you to see products in action solving problems for customers, and see various angles, how-to tutorials, etc. Visual information can be vital in some instances, have to see it to understand it well.
Both video and audio are good for establishing a real human personality, like a CEO, on a blog or website.
Why watch somebody talk to their webcam? It’s the factor of seeing the actual person, it’s more personal than cold text or faceless video. You see facial expressions, body delivery of message.
But I wish both audio and video information had text summaries or transcripts accompanying them. For info to be only on audio or video makes that info hard to parse, link to, quote, etc.
Posted by vaspers the grate aka steven e. streight on 10/17 at 07:02 AMP.S. I don’t like audio podcasts while I’m working on the computer at home, too distracting. So I listen to music instead, which inspires and entertains, without me having to focus much on the lyrics.
Posted by vaspers the grate aka steven e. streight on 10/17 at 07:05 AMMaybe the point Chip is making that media consumption patterns for podcasts are different from radio.. and there are certain ramifications of that.. and that probably plays a roll in adoption?
Shell, I think I Disagree with you a little.. but not really that much…
I think you often have stages of a business.. one stage is experimental… where its going in a lot of directions.. and then there’s a stage where things get really focused.. and efficiency.. My feeling is that the world of podcasts, and social / New Media generally… is in a kind of R&D;phase ... So what’s going on now is more about exploring and experimenting.. which makes it not as accessible… I mean if you look at podcasting from a user experience point of view.. It’s not always ideal.. I mean it seems pretty easy to me with my iTunes, and iPod.. but..
I think there are Media Aesthetics to podcasting that are different from mass media.. And I think a part of aesthetic experience is basically cognitive.. It’s about how you recognize patterns.. so there is a kind of aesthetic jump someone goes through when one is used to mass media culture aesthetics and jumps into an indie aesthetic experience.. and I think that’s an advantage that mass culture brands have.. if you can call Business Week a mass culture brand.. have over the more indie thing.
But I know growing up.. you had music which was really popular.. which was usually terrible.. and then there was music that I LOVED that wasn’t as popular but seemed to have a lot more going on in it.. It may very well be that we’ll see this sorta thing in the podcasting world… or something related.
I love Leo LaPorte, but he’s just one voice.. I could listen to 100 more tech podcasts if they were in areas that I was interested in that the TWIT network didn’t cover.. I mean do you realize there isn’t one good Flash podcast for people who are serious about Flash? The world of web design is a little bleak to…
I guess where I’m disagreeing with Mr. Brogan is.. a big part of why I listen to podcasts is to educate myself on a subject.. And there are certain market forces that shape TV, Radio, Magazines.. in a way that’s different from social media.. so even if there is a couple of Business Week podcasts (I like The Welch Way myself) I still want more.. particularly if I have a particular areas of interest.. I mean.. to my way of thinking a big part of the excitement of podcasts is that it extends our knowledge beyond what we might otherwise have access to.
The other thing I’m not sure about is the subject of monetization.. I think too many people are looking for in the box solutions to the problem of monetization.. People want it all worked out for them.. So you know.. maybe if you have 2K+ listeners you’re in a position where sponsorship is possible.. which well help buy you a few Pizza’s… and.. But where I think podcasting can be powerful is in how it integrates with a larger strategy… so it has a certain PR value.. I mean its sorta a no brainer that people right books to help establish them as experts.. which can help you get clients.. in whatever industry you’re in.. maybe local media will come to you when a story breaks in the area you’re the expert in..
But even these ways of thinking about it.. I think we should try and be open to the mystery… to remember how little we really know.. and that the world is fully of so many possibilities if we can merely open our eyes to them.. and this is true for monetization to..
And you know the other thing is that sound engineering is not really all that hard? I mean if you want to sound like the radio you can.. But the radio sounds the way it does for various reasons.. and that doesn’t make it’s “good.” Or I mean it doesn’t make it the ideal of good that everything else should be measured against. I mean I think a lot of us would agree that one of the cool things about podcasts is often the sorta random things that can happen while you’re recording.. the way that we can just do whatever.. in a way that you couldn’t if you doing conventional radio.. I mean I like to record in a way where you can hear the particulars of the acoustic space I was in because that was a part of what made the space feel the way it did.. It’s kind of the André Bazin (french new wave) school of media aesthetics.. or how once upon a time the records you bought where thought of as “actual records of events” like as a pose to studio constructions… and how does this change the way we listen? To say nothing of the way musicians perform..
idk, so there’s a lot of random thoughts to chew on.
Posted by matt searles on 10/17 at 07:13 AMVaspers- of course you can’t listen to audio podcasts while doing work that requires typing or language processing! You can’t do those two things at once- your brain only has one “audio” processing loop. Try paying attention to someone talking to you while you try to write a note- you cannot concentrate equally on both- crowds out working memory.
These tools- audio/video- are like any tool. You use it for the appropriate purpose. Video is great when you need a visual demonstration of something; audio works best for stories/conversations/interviews, etc. Audio requires visual and audio concentration; audio lets you go and do stuff, like work out, fold the laundry, or drive, and still use the audio/language processing centers of your brain. It’s not either/or- it’s using the tools when needed to get the information across.Posted by whitneyHoffman on 10/17 at 07:17 AMHaving spent the best part of two years building the system behind podcast.com, I can say that podcasting is far from dead.
We see many podcasts added to the ‘pool’ every day and loads of episodes being released every minute. (We used to send details of fresh episodes to Twitter at http://twitter.com/freshpodcasts but had to turn it off as it was just too much!
And their API wasn’t robust enough)
The trouble here is ‘iTunes’ - so many people think that’s the only place to get podcasts.
Even companies like the New York Times don’t help matters when they only link to iTunes for their feed subscriptions - see: http://urlb.at/4c3
This is just plain wrong.
We’re doing as much as we can to educate people and give them a place to find any podcast in the world and then listen/watch it straight away.
Also we’re letting people build their own directories which anyone can browse to discover new podcasts on ANY device.
The trouble with iTunes and Yahoo! Podcasts, for example (imho) is that there’s only a very small amount of people ‘curating’ those directories. It doesn’t scale. By allowing anyone to build a directory, with the ability to create a shortcut from one member’s folder to another, then I believe that ‘Social Multimedia Neworks’ will begin to evolve. (And it won’t be *just* podcasts)
Dave Winer and Adam Curry started to do this with iPodder.org (the first podcast directory), back in the ‘early’ days - leveraging the power of OPML to delegate category curation to more than one person. The trouble here was that the software to give to the curators never really came about.
Now that system is here at podcast.com. And the data is open. Anyone could build their own version of iTunes’ podcast directory on top of simple OPML and RSS data, without having it locked in to a device.
It’s time for people to wise up about podcasts and stop tieing it to the iPod. Yes, yes, yes, I know the word ‘pod’ is in the name, but why can’t that stand for ‘Portable On Demand’ - which is really what the technology was all about in the first place: putting YOU in control of WHEN you consume the media which people create.
There are A LOT more mp3-capable devices in people’s pockets which happen to be PHONES than there are iPods. These devices are connected. More and more, we’re seeing wiFi enabled phones too, which reduce download costs. Also we’re seeing more use of oher codecs like OGG and M4A which create smaller filesizes - again, reducing costs.
Give your mom this url: http://podcast.com/show/2079/
Then she can listen to your podcast whenever she likes, right on the page
Great post! And as you can see, as passionate discussion!
Kosso
Posted by Kosso on 10/17 at 07:37 AMEverytime I see the podcast link on CNN’s home page, I have to chuckle about podcasts and the hand-wringing over the lack of ‘mainstreamness’.
With that being said, we compete to an amazing one button interface-- the radio, regardless of whether it’s FM or XM (dear god I *adore* XM satellite radio, and with an awesome system in my truck, I want to listen to music, not talking).
Which brings us to an interesting cultural issue. Historically, what do we have in talk format? Politics, Morning Zoos (with a song or two), or cranky old white guys yelling at people. Also, news talk radio.
That’s a big space, but a small one, too. Right now the space is filled with evangelical nerd types (and marketing/PR people who know what RSS are, sorry, you’re a nerd).
The second thing I tend to hear outside of our ideological sphere is how it ‘doesn’t sound like radio’. This amuses me.
We so so so so so wanted the RSS thing + video + (insert religion here) to happen, I think subconsciously, it was patently offensive that people flocked to YouTube. By ‘people’, I don’t mean us. I mean, just, people.
People love television, radio, music, etc-- we supposedly don’t, I guess. We might hate the radio and television *industries*, but audio is audio video is video, regardless of what/where/how it’s delivered.
But hey, we’re collectively stubborn. We have to face that someone might actually want to listen to Britney over us-- something we can easily criticize, but doesn’t that turn us into an elitist segregated society? (Like, heh, the more things change, right?)
When I grew up, there was lots of talk radio around me, even in the Howard Stern era. Usually it was the old people in the neighborhood doing gardening in the suburbs.
The tech problems are easy to fix. The cultural ones are far greater. Do you think someone who flat out thinks your thing sucks gives a damn about ideology?
One final point, I don’t really care about the word ‘pod’cast (not cuz of the prefix ‘pod’), but it certainly as an entire genre throws it into some second-rate strip mall (like the ones with the store that just says DONUT on it).
It is our ghetto and we are sadly, so very blind.
Posted by Eric Rice on 10/17 at 08:06 AMAgreed that convergence of standards will be a good thing. But what is this obsession with audio OR video? The first podcast I produced http://five.org I used both, where appropriate and nobody ever complained.
Surely the point is that podcasting is a *new media channel* and can include *any media* -audio, video, interactive applications, PDFs, whatever enclosure you want to send people. Allow for consistency, sure, but don’t be boxed in by old media rules which need not apply.
What do you mean, podcasts are not mainstream? They are in the UK where the BBC promotes them all the time, in all formats, across all its channels, in all genres. Between them, Apple and the BBC have made podcasts first cool and then accepted.
Finally, I don’t live in any kind of tech “ghetto”; I constantly mix with so-called “normals” and I can assure you that they neither care nor waste time worrying about what something is called or whether it ports to a moblie player.
Sound of enjoyment. “What is it?” I ask. “It’s on the computer!” they smile. Sure some people get hung on the “pod” but then, some people call cars automobiles, and it doesn’t stop them driving around…
Posted by Dean Whitbread on 10/17 at 08:30 AMShel,
I enjoyed your post as well, however, I do believe that a fully integrated common platform does already exist and it’s called BlogTalkRadio (http://www.blogtalkradio.com).
Since our launch last year, we have broadcast more than 32,000 episodes. Our thousands of hosts/ publishers use any type of phone to broadcast their shows. The common platform element is the phone. Everyone has one and anyone can host their own radio show on our network. The more people that participate in the medium as creators of content, the more people will listen to the content.
Guests on the network have included John McCain, Wesley Clark, Oliver Stone, Frank Rich, Jennifer Hudson and many, many more.
Finally, Shel, I enjoyed chatting with you yesterday during John Haven’s BTR broadcast with Anil Dash. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/transparency
Alan Levy
BlogTalkRadioPosted by Alan Levy on 10/17 at 09:56 AMAlan, I understand your point, but it’s NOT fully integrated: It’s unique to BlogTalkRadio, which doesn’t work the same as Podshow, which doesn’t work the same as…
Video works the same throughout the web—nothing extra required, regardless of the site you visit. Ditto television, ditto radio, ditto telephones, regardless of the provider. This is what audio podcasting is missing.
More to come—just hyad a minute to comment between meetings…
Posted by Shel Holtz on 10/17 at 11:39 AMMy main point, I think, is that if you disseminate informatin ONLY in audio or video format, with no text summary or transcript, or no blog post that delivers the same or similar info, I feel you are drastically limiting the audience for that information.
Anyone else see what I’m driving at?
Posted by vaspers the grate aka steven e. streight on 10/17 at 01:11 PMFor example, I’m a fan of Loren Feldman and 1938 Media. But his information/rants are delivered in video format almost exclusively, and sometimes I don’t have time or opportunity to sit there and watch a video.
And it’s hard to quote a video or audio presentation, you have to write by hand or type it up, perhaps paraphrase it, so it can get garbled or misquoted.
Posted by vaspers the grate aka steven e. streight on 10/17 at 01:13 PMI agree that one of the biggest challenges confronting the audio space is indexing the content.
A short form video of 2-3 minutes doesn’t require the indexing that a thirty minute audio podcast requires. We are working very hard on providing the tools for our publishers to create good meta data and indexed content.
When a reader of a blog or twitter post can see the exact location of something interesting said on a podcast, than consumption will grow dramatically.
Posted by Alan Levy on 10/17 at 01:28 PMShel,
I agree with you that the lack of a universal format is an issue. Last month we surveyed the readers of our blog (independent retailers) and found that just 24% of them own an iPod or other mp3 player and 82% never listen to podcasts.
As you can imagine, that makes selling the idea of a podcast to my management a bit of a challenge. On the other hand, I suspect that if we had asked the same group about video podcasts, the numbers would have been even lower.
As it’s been stated here already, an independent can produce an excellent audio podcast with a minimum of expense but video is a little more difficult. I remember years ago, the radio industry ran a series of ads produced by Stan Freeberg to promote radio advertising. They were great. The point was that you can use the theater of the mind to take the listener just about anywhere you want him to go. But with video, it’s a lot harder. (A B52 sound effect is much less expensive to obtain than video footage of the plane).
I think audio podcasting is just scratching the surface, but there will have to be some kind of coordinated effort to make it available to a bigger audience.
Posted by Mike Buckley on 10/17 at 01:46 PMLet me give the perspective of nearly 6 years as a Webcaster streaming ones & zeros.
Although wi-fi has provided a non-tethered way to listen, millions of people every day stay bound to their computers in order to hear internet radio (aka webcasts). While it CAN be one-click, most of the time it’s a little more complicated than that. Plus, they have to deal with bandwidth/network connection problems (drops in particular- I can’t hear my own webcast without a loss-of-signal/rebuffer every 5-15 minutes). If they mind, they don’t let it stop them.
Part of the problem with podcasts is technical glitches: everything from poor audio quality to Stoopid Episode Names (& NO ID3 tags!) to not putting the darned link and/or RSS graphic on the web page(s) where it can be found simply (or at all).
I think Shel is correct about the lack of a standard way to subscribe & recieve podcasts. The “RSS” graphic just isn’t known much outside the podcasting community. Also, you have to have an application in order to subscribe to & recieve podcasts. That’s why numbers exploded when podcasts went onto iTunes. No special graphics to specially click on, no special additional software needed: if you want an episode click “Get” and if you want a series click “Subscribe”. Until a Podcatching application comes inside every OS for several years and works for all podcasts, podcasting will grow arithmatically, not geometrically.
Love & Peace,
ClarencePosted by Clarence Jones on 10/17 at 07:10 PMStill reading the comments, wow, we focus on tech, and not brand.
BTW, I forgot to re-tell the story of the top two podcasts in the Sports category in iTunes are both ESPN shows, and the user comments rage on this ‘diet’ format. “Please can we have the whole show?”
I thought we were all supposed to renounce any and all things mass media, for now and forever more, forever and ever amen? So what the heck is up with all these people who uh, like TV and Radio?
Those people who watch TV and not me are, uh, wrong! Yeah, that’s it!
Throw more code at it, it still won’t reach the mall. Mass reach isn’t important, naturally, as anyone active in the losing side of politics will tell you. (Sarcasm, that.)
Posted by Eric Rice on 10/17 at 08:31 PMAlan Levy - The only long podcasts I listen to are by Jason Calacanis. I burn them to a CD, then listen when I’m doing cleaning or tidying or other manual work around the house.
Could long podcasts be broken up into smaller segments?
At least there should be textual summaries, bullet points, etc. that describe a podcast, but this is not done enough.
I hate TV and radio with an extreme repulsion. So we don’t want to become MSM clones. Eric Rice is absolutely right.
Posted by vaspers the grate aka steven e. streight on 10/18 at 06:48 AMVaspers - While you like burning the Calacanis podcast to a CD, most people seem to prefer to subscribe to podcasts and download them to their Ipod.
Itunes for example does a poor job on creating meta data on the podcasts (i.e. complete description of the topic discussed). As a result the searching and tagging tools are not helpful.
We establish unique profiles for each publisher and every time a broadcast is scheduled, the description of the podcast is indexed and recorded for SEO. It’s a constant battle to create good meta data.
I believe in large part that the content being produced by the podcasting community is engaging. I agree that better indexing is essential for people to know how and where to find the content that interests them.
Posted by Alan Levy on 10/18 at 07:03 AMI’m a big consumer of both video and audio pocasts, and I’ve also hosted an audio and a video podcast, and there are huge differences both from a viewer/listener and a producer’s point of view.
I agree that it’s way easier to make a good audio show than a video one, which explains why there are so few decent independent video podcasts out there. But it’s still a heck of a lot of work to do either, which is why I’m not doing it any more. I got myself a real job and that was it for my podcasting career.
But here’s the thing: back when I was a podcaster, the minute I switched from doing an audio podcast to a video one, my audience went WAY up, and I used exactly the same distribution for both (Libsyn and iTunes). So what made my video podcast so much more popular? I know the content of the audio was richer, more interesting and more diverse, but still, video won out, and I can’t say one was easier for anyone to access or play than the other. In fact, video is harder to bring along with you and impossible to watch while you’re doing something else, and yet it still trumped audio.
My explanation goes back to Marshall McLuhan’s distinction between “hot” and “cool” media. Web TV is what McLuhan would call a hot medium because it doesn’t demand much effort from the viewer, whereas Internet radio or podcasts are cool, which means that they demand more active participation from the user’s own imagination. It seems counter-intuitive, because of course you can be doing something and listening at the same time. It’s more about mental involvement, and to enjoy an audio podcast you really have to pay a lot of attention. The rewards are there, mind, you, but audio simply takes more out of you.
Hence the huge popularity of Youtube, which is like a browsable visual snack bar, easy to consume and digest but ultimately shallow and disposable.
And so, audio podcast listeners love Leo Laporte and his gang of affable geeks and salty curmudgeons because they engage us so fully. We don’t just listen, they make us feel as if we’re part of their conversation and we pay full attention because of this interesting, hospitable atmosphere they create.
Same with Shel and Neville. The invite us in and give us something that’s worthy of our attention. But this level of engagement is rare, and difficult to achieve.
I do think ease of use on the audio side is also a big issue. A video, you can scroll through and sort of see what’s going on as you scan through it, but most audio podcasts still don’t have an easy way to skip from one item to the next (BTW, I’d LOVE it if FIR had this handy capability, which seems to be available on more and more audio podcasts like CBC 3 and The Best of Moyles.
But I gas on. Main point: Video, HOT, audio COLD. Therefore video will draw more casual users and gain popularity more quickly. But audio won’t die, it will just have to work harder to earn its audience, which will ultimately be much more loyal.
Posted by Ron Shewchuk on 10/18 at 01:08 PMSo many comments from so many smart people that I could just say “ditto” to a lot of it.
In the end there will ALWAYS be room for audio and video. They are consumed and enjoyed differently.
There are still tech barriers that prevent the majority of people from consuming either of them at the end of the day. No one gets stressed about turning on the Radio or plopping down in front of the TV, but they do still get stressed when they see a “subscribe to a podcast” link. We’ve got plenty of hurdles to get over before any mass adoption happens.
It is easier then ever for anyone to create content. That adds a lot of crap into the mix which will always tag this space as “amateur” to some people. it’s a hard thing to kick.
Posted by C.C. Chapman on 10/19 at 05:04 AMRon Shewchuk - You are a talented writer and I am very impressed with your astute explanation of audio vs. video.
It does require more concentration to focus on an audio file of talking. Mind wanders. In my past advertising career, I was taught that the more of the senses you involve, the more of Mind that will be focused and the more memorable the message becomes.
Again, a huge problem with both audio and video is the needlessly long introductions of panel speakers, the boring bios, the tangents and jokes and anecdotes that are just filler.
Manifestos are far more effective and agile than interviews, for information dissemination, because a manifesto gets down to business quicker, and states things more memorably.
Posted by vaspers the grate aka steven e. streight on 10/19 at 05:17 AMAlan Levy - Yes, I’m odd in my burning audio to CDs. Maybe I should step out of my cave and buy an iPod. LOL
Posted by vaspers the grate aka steven e. streight on 10/19 at 05:19 AMIn defense of audio and video podcasting, let’s remember that postal mail, telephone, and physically present talking contain much “amateur” content, trivia, and drivel.
The digital native generation, growing up on Club Penguin and Webkinz, will not be intimidated by a “subscribe to podcast” link, and they are the future that is replacing us old geezers.
The wonderful thing is that each person on earth can have their own “TV” or “radio” station, and express themselves in new ways to a global audience.
Along with blogs and other web tools, this rise of individual voice to a worldwide audience is unprecedented in human history.
Posted by vaspers the grate aka steven e. streight on 10/19 at 05:25 AMI think we would see more audiocasting if we could get people over the technical hurdles and fears. I’m very technical but time hasn’t permitted me to answer some basic questions which keep me from doing more podcasting.
Hosting. For instance, hosting on my own server seems disastrous but that’s what I am doing now. If I ever grow more than the 16 readers I have, my host is going to ream me with a nightmarish bandwidth bill.
Software. I’ve answered this for myself but regardless of platform, people need a dummies guide to podcasting software.
Script outline. We don’t just want more podcasting. We want more “quality” podcasting so people need to be taught to format their show, write it ahead of time, and edit their shows.
Distribution. This one I haven’t answered yet. How do I get the podcast out? The common user needs to have enclosures explained and how to get on iTunes.
Hosting and distribution are my biggest stumbling blocks.
Posted by Doug McCaughan on 10/20 at 09:00 AMI think we need to now push harder on the “Podcast” term to really redefine the meaning more then just new media delivered automatically sent to an iPod, but to mean portable digital media CONTENT. We need to move away from the association podcasting has with the rss based delivery and focus on the discussion around content. This is all about making things simple for audiences with one-click content access - which is coming to the Zune. I am hoping that the millions Zune is about to spend on national advertising will drive growing awareness away from an exclusive podcast association with the iPod. Hopefully this will result in an association for “Podcast” to mean a new type of personalized portable on-demand media CONTENT that our audience really only wants or cares about.
Rob Greenlee
Zune PodcastingPosted by Rob Greenlee on 10/20 at 04:44 PMDoug -
Hosting - this was solved a long time ago - http://www.libsyn.com
Unmetered bandwidth for $5 a month and never a commercial inserted if you do not want it. This is where FIR hosts along with 8,000 other people - including myself for over 2 years. (Full Disclosure - I work for Wizzard that owns Libsyn - but I was singning there priases long before I worked for them) So Hosting really has not been an issue since late 2004 when Libsyn launched.Software - Read Podcasting for Dummies or Podcasting Solutions.
Distribution - Getting into iTunes requires just a valid RSS feed. Soon you will also be able to get into the Zune directory and Podcast Pickle, Podcast Alley and more directories submit pages can be found here:
http://www.podcast411.com/page2.html
Once you are in all the directories - get out and spread the word in forum boards that cover the topics you talk about. Finally ask those listeners you have to link to your show and mention it in blog posts.
Rob W
host - podCast411Posted by Rob Walch on 10/20 at 05:44 PMRon,
“How to Do Everything with Podcasting” by some PR guy from California and his British friend is by far the best book on podcasting on the market. I wish I could remember the authors’ names. I hear they host a pretty good podcast.
Mike Buckley
Mine Your Own Business
http://www.tacony.com/myobPosted by Mike Buckley on 10/22 at 05:50 AMPodcasts aren’t popular because not much people listen whatever except radio, it’s not convenient, for example, I don’t know software to listen podcasts on my Win05 PDA
Posted by blogger on 02/07 at 05:55 AMWhat is the difference between a podcast and a recorded mp3 file? Nothing in my eyes… Podcast is just a new name for it.
Posted by David Murphey on 02/16 at 08:39 PMHello David Murphey! The difference between a podcast and a recorded mp3 file is that a podcast is distributed by RSS with an enclosure.
Kosso of podcast.com explains really well in a Seesmic video on Reality Me: http://realityme.net/2007/12/11/what-is-a-podcast/
I personally enjoy an audio podcast very much.
DougPosted by David Murphey on 02/17 at 11:53 AMaudio podcast will be more effective if it is given with text on the page. i tried it on some sites and it was effective.
Posted by seo company on 03/11 at 04:12 AMThe biggest problem is that not any person has a voice suitable for Podcasts. In exUSSR we have only two good regular podcasts, done by 3 radio-professionals.
Posted by BirdEye on 05/13 at 02:44 AM> In exUSSR we have only two good regular podcasts, done by 3 radio-professionals.
Can you give more information on it? I’m from the exUSSR country, but I’ve never heard about it beofre
Posted by NavisionGirl on 05/13 at 08:40 PMI guess the major reason why it is yet to go mainstream is due to improper standardisation. Proper adoptation of standard formats will result in great popularity
Posted by Wayne on 08/12 at 12:22 AM
Next entry: The Hobson & Holtz Report - Podcast #285: October 18, 2007
Previous entry: I will not be at Podcamp Boston